Update# 2: I went to the City park a few times during the scheduled time for this event and I saw nothing but what one should expect to see at a city park. It may be that the event was simply held somewhere else, less public and not publicized for which I praise the Lord. I would hope that those who had planned to participate and especially the young man who organized it in the first place would really start thinking critically about their attitudes and actions. When we are hearing stories like that of this young lady, and, particularly relevant to the proposed Bible fight,these people, it should inspire one to really examine one's own views with an eye towards which religions/philosophies really respect life.
Update: I can no longer find the event "Bible Fight in the Park on Facebook". This may mean that it has simply gone underground. I am hoping that it means that one of the local clergy I notified contacted the organizer's parents and they did what a good parent who cares about their child's future would do in such a case. I hope it's the latter. (By that, I don't mean that people should be denied freedom of speech, but I do mean that parents should be looking out for the future of their children and exercise appropriate discipline to do so. It's bad enough when adults behave in an offensive manner under the banner of free speech, but at least they are doing so with a reasonable understanding of the likely results of such behavior.)If I hear differently, I'll post again. Thank you to all who offered suggestions and thank you to WBCA's adult posters for backing off to allow the community of Plymouth to act.
I have spent the better part of this last week de-bugging my computer. Thank the Lord my husband is a programmer/analyst. With his help and the help of one of his co-workers, Sophos anti-virus software and MalwareBytes, we have managed to track down and remove the over 50 virus/malware programs that insinuated themselves into our computer a few days back. I have no idea yet how they got here, the antivirus software just popped up and we were off!
Then my son shared an event posting on Facebook with me. Apparently some of the young people of Plymouth, WI have decided to have a Bible fight in Plymouth's City Park. Perhaps you believe that this event is going to be a doctrinal debate or a debate between young atheists and believers. Young people who have studied their own beliefs and are willing to stand up in a public forum and discuss them rationally with others. While I know a few young people in Plymouth who really do know what they believe, doctrinally, and would be willing to do such a thing, I am sad to say it is not so.
This is a group of teenagers who, I am assured, are mostly atheists or agnostics who will be throwing Bibles at one another in a game of pseudo dodge ball. I have no doubt that their parents will look lovingly on as their children purchase Bibles, thinking how wonderful it is that their children love God enough to want to purchase their own Bible.
In order to bring reality to these parents, I have alerted the local newspaper to this event posting. Won't their parents be proud to see their young ones in the paper? I can't say, given my previous experiences with this community, that I am surprised by this and that's a shame.
I am appalled beyond words at this event. I hope that a local newspaper article will cause the event to be cancelled entirely and cause some teenagers to suffer revoked driving privileges and remedial Bible Studies. I rather suspect, however, that it will be instead be celebrated as a victory for free speech.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. " ~Proverbs 1:7
Friday, July 17, 2009
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
50 comments:
This Bible fight idea is perfectly appalling! What gross disrespect for the Word of God!
I really hope that this idea does not spread. This is tragic to even consider. Rather than go out and purchase Bibles for their fight, I would imagine most would simply take the Bible they find in their homes, which is probably not much used, and take it to the fight. They assume it will not be much missed, and they may be correct in that assumption.
This is a true horror!
I'm with you on that one. I know one of the boys. I called his mother and the next day his name was removed from the "confirmed guests" list.
I'm still thinking about the best course of action. Any suggestions?
What would you, as a member of the clergy, do if you heard about such an event from someone in the community but not in your church? The guest list is on Facebook. If I can find a few more parents to call, that may help, but I was thinking the local clergy knows more of them than I would.
Mom, I suggest that you make a copy of that list from Facebook and get it to as many of your local Christian clergy as you can, along with an explanation for what is happening. I suggest giving them the list because many of them may not have access to Facebook (I don't). I think most of them will want to take some sort of action and will appreciate your efforts.
I wonder if you need to take it to the City Council in Plymouth to have them make the park unavailable and to discuss the inappropriate use of public facilities?
Is there anyway you can get it discussed on the air on a local radio station, say a talk radio station? I think if a lot of parent heard about this, that would be the end of it for certain.
That's what I thought too. When I contacted my own pastor, he seemed oddly reluctant about contacting the local clergy. He's generally a pretty sharp cookie, so I am sitting on the e-mail I have prepared to send to the local clergy until I think about it a bit more. (He also thought most of the parents wouldn't care. That may be true, but I tend to think there is a duty to allow them the opportunity to address the issue as parents. That is part of the risk of giving people freedom. Sometimes they make bad decisions. That doesn't justify withholding the opportunity to make the decision.)
I hadn't thought of the city council.
I think both taking it to the City Council and taking it to talk radio (if possible) would make it a public issue and would put some public pressure on parents that might not act otherwise. I do think this is a public issue, and there ought to be public pressure brought to bear on it. I'm not suggesting making the list of names public, although it would not hurt to tell people where to find it since Facebook is a public site. But just let the public know that this is what the young people of the community are planning to do should bring out an outcry (I hope!).
hmm. there is a local Christian station and WVCY is just a few miles South of Plymouth in Milwaukee.
Nice to have you back up and posting. Don't forget you have an award to post.
Thank you DR. I'm not forgetting, I'm trying to think of those 10 honest things about myself. lol
I connected this story with WVCY. Hoping they will drop you a note. I am absolutely outraged that a bunch of youth will be allowed to behave in such a manner. Thanks for the nice Wisconsin welcome to any visitors...... Can you imagine what people from other communities think?
I agree with Dr. D. 100% Go to your City Council. START with the Mayor. If you get nowhere, talk to each and every alderman by phone personally, asking them what they feel is the best representation of Plymouth, WI. Make notes of their responses to BLOG.
Contact Mark Belling, Vicki McKenna, Jay Weber, Charlie Sykes.
Contact all media far and wide, bar none.
Not kidding.
Do what it takes to keep Plymouth on the map as a city with integrity, whose parents do care about how their children are being taught to respect others.
Free speech? Certainly. But appropriate for kids? Absolutely NOT.
I am really, really outraged.... AGAIN.
Thanks for stopping by WBCA.
Right now, since we have a bit of time before the event, I am taking the approach that the clergy and parents of the community need to be informed about the event first. That's one of the reasons it is "below the fold" on this post instead of front and center.
I think the parents are the first line here. I have sent an e-mail with the event details, including the guest list, to all the local clergy I could find e-mail links for. I am hoping that they will start contacting the parents who are in their congregations and through their efforts this will become a non-event.
I'm taking this route because, right now, it's a stupid teenager thing. If they are pushed it may become a free speech issue instead of the parenting issue it is now and those who might have been iffy about it could be pushed into defending a point of view they do not truly hold or that they are not sure of for the sake of their own pride.
If I find it still going forward as the date approaches, I will do something else. I'm not definite on what that something else might be as yet, but I have some ideas.
I notice that they are not planning to throw the Koran at each other or the Veda, the Kojiki, the Zend Avesta, the Confucian Analects or etc, just the Bible. Seems to me that it is Christianity they have a problem with rather than religion-as usual.
If nothing else, it is my fervent hope that if this does go really public, it will give parents and clergy the opportunity to engage the young people of this community in a loving, substantive, logical manner that will bring them to salvation and if not salvation, at least to a sense of propriety regarding their community.
The mayor could certainly see to it that they are required to pick up every single bit of the Bibles before they leave the park or be charged with littering, but I don't think there is much else he could do.
Lest those reading the blog think poorly of all Plymouth's youth, there are one or two who are making attempts to dissuade the others from holding this event. I think their parents and clergy should take note of those youth as well, in a positive way.
This sounds reasonable, fair and sound. Most likely someone will get wind of it and start screaming "free speech." We saw it in West Bend, so it won't surprise me at all. Giving parents the opportunity to deal with this first is a good-sense step. Clergy may take action, but it seems that most will shy away from making any public statements, or getting involved in any "political" activity, which many would consider this to be.
I wish those who preach the Word of God would lead on. I believe if they did, others would be more courageous. Not that this rests entirely on the shoulders of pastors and church leadership, but it certainly would set the example and lend credence to what is being taught in the church. Just my opinion.
hello everyone this is the person who created this event. i have every right to do this and i will. i don't care if only two people come. if we don't do it at the city park thats fine. we will find a new place to go. also i do not believe in god and because of that i get so much shit. you all don't even know if he is real, so why make the life on the non believers a living hell. why cant you respect our opinions also. i put no significance on the holy bible, therefore it means nothing to you. i understand for many of you it does. you don't have to go to this event. this is free speech which is what i have the right to practice.
Anonymous,
Thank you for your (mostly) polite reply. I will remind you that the terms of MY blog include no profanity. I will leave your post this time, because it advances the conversation. Any other profanity will result in an edited post.
That said, you are entirely correct. This is a matter of free speech and you have the right to gather on public property to hold this event.
I do know that God is real and as for going out of my way to make life more difficult for anyone, I think life is hard enough. However, if I see someone about to hurt themselves, I think I have a duty to prevent it if I can.
You are entitled to your opinion. However, God and a belief in God, particularly Christianity's God is what is allowing you to hold this event at all. The founders of our nation were by and large Christians. The reason we have freedom of religion and freedom of speech in this country is that the Christian religion allows people to investigate the truth of God to come to a saving knowledge of Christ's work on the cross themselves. Other religions would not allow that. Were you a non-believer(or a believer) of Islam in Saudi Arabia planning to use the Quran for dodgeballs, I think the authorities would have a difficult time keeping your neighbors from killing you long enough to pass sentence and kill you themselves.
You, as does every human being, have a duty to yourself to find the truth. You owe yourself this duty because, you don't know everything(and I don't know anyone who does) and if it is true that we will live beyond the lives of our current, physical bodies, then you need information on what that life is going to be like and if you can have any influence on that life now. I have investigated several other religions and have found that the Bible, in all areas where I have the necessary information to judge is true. (I could go into matters of faith and belief, but you have obviously heard and discounted such things already.)
In the oldest book of the Bible(Job) it refers to the sphere of the earth and says that the Earth is hung on nothing. We are fortunate enough to live in a time when people have been off the planet to look and the Earth is indeed a sphere that is hung on nothing. It is not a tree as Norse religion would have it, it is not resting on the shoulders of Atlas as the Greek/Roman pantheon would have it, it is hung on nothing. Research to find out how other religions view the Earth. Do your homework before you throw religion away because it's restrictions annoy you.
You may say, enough! I don't want to believe in God, whether it's true or not and that is also your right as an individual. I would ask you to consider whether or not you owe any respect or consideration to your parents or community.
This event, as you can see from the comments of Dr.D, who lives in another state and WBCA who lives in West Bend, showcases your community in an entirely negative light. If you don't believe in God, and want to share that view, then arrange a public debate with others in your age group who do. That is respectful to your community. It indicates dissent with respect. What you are doing is childish, disrespectful and damaging to your community.
Right now, Plymouth, Sheb. Falls and Sheboygan are poised to gain several new businesses with the reopening of the rail line between Plymouth and Sheboygan. How many of those businesses do you think will want their names associated with a community that allows their children to use Bibles as dodgeballs? If I were the owners of those businesses I would have serious reservations about looking for workers in a community whose children have so little respect for others that they would allow such an event to take place. Nothing happens in a vacuum young man and your actions do affect those around you.
This event is a bad idea whether you are an atheist or not and I would respectfully ask you to cancel it and schedule something more appropriate.
this event is not being canceled and do any of you have anything better to do then meddle in the affairs of young adults. you are making this go out of hand. we now more then ever are going to continue with this event. this town is very uptight and religious and i am going to do everything i can to change the mold so this town. you all could be spending your time doing something more productive also. i am done commenting any further. i hope you all find something better to do. god knows i am.
Hey friends,
I just wanted to add that the reason we've chose Bibles instead of any other religious text is simply because they're extremely common. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think you can buy a copy of the Quran at your local Dollar Store.
I really appreciate the kindness of a concerned citizen, but there comes a point where you just need to mind your own business. Feel free to shelter your own children, brainwash them with stories of giants and really big boats that fit two of every animal, and teach them it's bad to express their own opinions, but PLEASE leave others OUT of it.
I'm nineteen years old and free to make my own decisions. I also went to a Catholic grade school for nine years so please don't merely dismiss me as being ignorant or naive either. I've done a lot of growing up, thinking, and opening up my mind. I don't simply accept things anymore because it's "god's will" or it's written in a "holy" book. And even though a lot of teens who are participating in this event are a little bit younger than me, I strongly feel that they have the right to believe what they want and not what their parents force down their throats.
The only reason why this event has been blown way out of proportion is because of people like you who are sticking their noses where they don't belong. If you would not have instigated all this controversy, no one would even know about this. The day of the event would come, we'd throw a couple Bibles around, have a few laughs, and it would not have any effect on your life whatsoever.
You've turned an inside joke into a serious debate about freedom of speech. I'm just speaking for myself here but I think many others would agree that this just makes us want to do it even more.
The one way to make teenagers do something is telling them to stop.
Thanks for reading. :)
As a Christian, no I can think of nothing better than to defend my faith. I did not invite 100 more people from all over the world to your event. I respectfully asked you to cancel it out of respect for your community and yourselves.
You said:
"do any of you have anything better to do then meddle in the affairs of young adults"
Then you follow it up with:
"this town is very uptight and religious and i am going to do everything i can to change the mold so this town."
Which is it? You think this is just a teenager thing or you want to change the town? I suspect the latter, so why are you pretending to be upset that you have found opposition?
I would very much like you to come to a saving knowledge of Christ's work on the cross for you, but I will not sit by and do nothing while a large group of young people injures themselves in this way.
I am also loathe to risk any God fearing adult who might come upon your little event serendipitously and do harm to you or themselves when they realize that you are treating the word of God in that manner.
You have acknowledged that you have issues with this community. This is not an appropriate way to address those issues. From your post on WBCA's blog, I suspect your issues have to do with your choice of a homosexual lifestyle. That is a truly unhealthy choice and I would be remiss not to point that out to any young person who is making such a huge mistake. By choosing such a lifestyle, you are choosing to cut 20-40 years off of your life and greatly increase the chances that your death will be painful and lingering because of the kinds of health problems associated with that lifestyle. Surely you deserve better than that and I would hope that you would examine yourself and your motives in choosing that lifestyle and choose life instead.
@Thanks for reading. :)
If you read the event wall, you will see that when another invitee pointed out the lack of other religious texts, they were told that since Christianity has done the most harm to the world, they would stick to Bibles. Then, if you have been following the rest of the conversations on these blogs, you will see that the event organizer clearly has his own axe to grind against Christianity and his community. There was also a post from one invitee to this event saying: "Im in, fighting against xtianity for Allah".
To say that my defense of my faith is what it causing this to get out of hand is rather like saying my witnessing someone abusing their child, spouse or pet and reporting it to the police is what made that event a problem.
You said:
" And even though a lot of teens who are participating in this event are a little bit younger than me, I strongly feel that they have the right to believe what they want and not what their parents force down their throats."
We agree on that. I think every individual should study and make their own decisions on what they believe. I also think that the beliefs of others should be treated with respect. This is not respectful to the community of Plymouth, Christian or otherwise.
Most of what I have heard in these discussions is how all the adults and community members of Plymouth who would find this appalling should sit down and shut up and let their opinions be trampled on so that these disrespectful young people can shove their beliefs down our throats.
Respect is a reciprocal duty. If any of these young folks wanted to have a rational and reasonable discussion about different religions, I don't know of a clergy member who would turn them away. I am not a member of the clergy and I would be happy to entertain a civilized discussion of our differences in opinion and how we can make the community a better place through respecting each other's viewpoints.
This is a childish display which shows the entire community in a bad light. Do any of you really think that throwing dirt on people is the way to encourage reasonable dialogue when you want change?
I think you do not. I think you are just acting out with the hope that someone will correct you and show you the proper way to conduct negotiations for changing a community. I am hoping that you will read this, cancel that event and plan a more respectful one.
Ask Plymouth's clergy to debate you in a public forum. You sound firm enough in your convictions to be able to defend them.
I think you could find Qurans if you were really sincere about the all religions thing. Try Amazon.com. They are wholesalers, I'm sure they would give you a good price for a bulk order. There is plenty of time to order them. I wouldn't recommend it, because while most Christians may try to dissuade you non-violently, I'm sure the same would not be true for most followers of Allah.
Greetings Mom,
I was once a diehard christian such as yourself. Unlike most I asked many questions and researched religion as a whole. I have an understanding of a good majority of the bible and was raised in a church, by goats.
Now, your views on homosexuality are completely skewed. The homosexual lifestyle is not a choice, it's a sexuality. It is sexual orientation. Brains are wired a specific way and instincts control said orientation. I don't know if what you're saying is a joke, because honestly this is something I would hear on some crude comedy show, but you seem very ignorant. I'd suggest you visit your local library and pick up some biology books. Your bible is "OLD SCIENCE". There is nothing wrong with throwing some outdated information around at a park.
If being a homosexual is a choice, as you claim, I'd imagine you're capable of being a homosexual yourself. Maybe you're gay, with a viewpoint such as yours it wouldn't surprise me. In fact it would make perfect sense. I no longer follow god's word, and I know for a fact that I am straight, and have absolutely no desire to be intimate with my own sex. I don't have a choice because I am not physically capable of doing so.
Now what I'm saying shouldn't be a surprise to you. Every generation grows further than the past generation. You are old, we are new. We have new ideas and new concepts which some of us have explored thoroughly and have proven to be superior to your former.
Just because someone's gay doesn't mean they're going to miraculously contract HIV. Thank you for your time, and good luck with your brain deficiency/homosexuality.
PS
You don't have to sugar coat everything you're saying because you believe in god. We all know what's truly going through your head. You are angry and feel disrespected because you have existed longer than the majority of us. Unfortunately life is unfair, and your children will academically advance further than you will. Take this into consideration.
@Mom's best friend,
I have studied different religions as well and if you will read my earlier reply to the claimed organizer of this event, you will see my reasoning for my Christianity.
You said:"Every generation grows further than the past generation. You are old, we are new. We have new ideas and new concepts which some of us have explored thoroughly and have proven to be superior to your former"
I have seen so many examples of late of young, "smart" people making really dumb decisions through lack of experience and the same arrogance you have shown in your post that I have no choice but to refute your claim of superiority for younger people in general.
I have read current research and my views are not outdated.
I refer to homosexuality as a choice because sex is a behavior. People can choose how they behave. You are perfectly physically capable of choosing to engage in homosexual sex, as am I and as is the entire population. Several people have chosen to engage in homosexual behavior one day and then, on another day chosen to reject that behavior and vice versa. HIV is not the only health threat associated with homosexuality.
As for "sugar coating", I have talked repeatedly about respect on this blog and in others. If you prefer to assign negative motives to my treating the posters on my blog respectfully, that says far more about you than it does about me. As for your casting aspersions on my character, please review the rules for the blog. I will not tolerate such disrespect towards myself or my readers/posters again.
You said:
"Thank you for your time, and good luck with your brain deficiency/homosexuality.
"
To equate homosexuality with a brain deficiency is disrespectful to the one poster who has self identified on another blog as a homosexual as well as to those who have commented on my blog in the past who may be reading this posting without commenting.
Once again you want it both ways. You claim homosexuality is not a choice and so, should be accepted at face value with no censure for those who choose to practice it, while at the same time you use the idea that I could be someone who would choose a homosexual lifestyle as an insult. The people I know who have chosen that lifestyle have overwhelmingly done so after being abused in one way or another, sometimes for years and I find it really repulsive to see others doing that sort of back-handed insult to people who have really suffered enough.
science disproves god. the fact that god has no real form disproves him. nobody has seen god, nobody talks to god. if someone says god talks to them then OMG its a savior. but if i said i had voices in my head i would be considered totally loony. your all loony :)
Mom, you are certainly entertaining some rude, ignorant visitors on this thread. Both Anonymous and the person claiming to be your Best Friend have shown themselves to be grossly arrogant and dismally ignorant.
To quote Anonymous, "i put no significance on the holy bible, therefore it means nothing to you." Mr. Anonymous, this is what is called a non sequitur which means literally, "it does not follow." Your conclusion does not follow from your premise, which shows that your reasoning abilities are seriously flawed. You should be very careful about trusting yourself to reason through anything at all because you have demonstrated your inability to do so right here.
You also commented, "i am done commenting any further. i hope you all find something better to do. god knows i am." Here you invoke the God that you profess not to believe in, and immediately afterward you add another comment. Apparently you don't keep your word very well either.
And to Moms Best Friend (I doubt that she will claim you, but that is another matter), you say that you were raised in the church, by goats. I'm sure that you will understand the problem then when I point out that the sheep and the goats are separated, and it appears that you have gone with the goats.
(cont)
You said to Mom, "Your bible is "OLD SCIENCE"." You seem to have seriously misunderstood what the Bible is, even though you say that, "I have an understanding of a good majority of the bible..." This simply cannot be true for you to make such a completely ignorant statement regarding the nature of the Bible. Hint: The Bible is not a science book, either new or old.
You also said, "You are angry and feel disrespected because you have existed longer than the majority of us. Unfortunately life is unfair, and your children will academically advance further than you will." There are at least a couple of parts to what I need to say to this.
1) You say that you will advance further academically. Maybe you will, or maybe you will not. Today's politically correct education is of greatly diminished value compared to the education that Mom (and I) received many long years ago when learning how to think critically was actually a part of the curriculum. A college degree today is just about as good as a high school diploma of 50 years ago. Even a PhD today is about as good as a MS used to be (I got my PhD over 40 years ago). So, you may get more paper to hang on your wall, but please do not think yourself more educated.
2) There is education and then there is wisdom. Education can be acquired relatively quickly by going to school. Wisdom is gained much more slowly. Many people never acquire wisdom, never even have any idea what it is. Mom definitely has great wisdom, and you are extremely foolish to talk back to her as you do. But then, that is the way of the unwise.
Both of you show yourselves to be young, foolish, and eager to demonstrate these qualities to the world. You are anxious to let everyone know that you want to make your own mistakes, big time! You will certainly not be willing to learn from the experience of others, you will not accept the accumulated wisdom of mankind through the ages. No, you will have to make every mistake for yourself. It usually does not take too many of these to be fatal.
The Bible that you so casually disregard is God's written Word to mankind. If you would read it, study it, and take it to heart, you might find many things in there that could help to guide your lives aright. Most importantly, you would read of the plan of salvation, the sending of God's Son, Jesus Christ, to save the world from sin. Now you may say, "It did not work," or "I don't believe it," but your saying that does not change it one bit. It is true. Some will hear the message of salvation and come to faith in Jesus Christ, and some will not and be damned eternally. The same Jesus who suffered to redeem the world will also judge the world with absolute righteousness (do you know what that means?) There is still time to accept Christ, but no one knows how long the time of grace will last. The choice is yours
This post has been edited by Mom-My comments are in italics relieving me of the need to respond in a separate post. It has also been broken into two posts due to the length of the post with my comments.
Mom's Best Friend said...
"You said:"Every generation grows further than the past generation. You are old, we are new. We have new ideas and new concepts which some of us have explored thoroughly and have proven to be superior to your former"
I have seen so many examples of late of young, "smart" people making really dumb decisions through lack of experience and the same arrogance you have shown in your post that I have no choice but to refute your claim of superiority for younger people in general."
OBVIOUSLY. These brilliant concepts are rare and come only from exceptional minds. I specifically said "some of us." You're seeing it from an incredibly generalized standpoint. There are exceptions for everything. Arrogance is not a brilliant concept, nor is a simple statement that you obviously intend me to accept as fact simply because you said it. Brilliance often includes the ability to communicate effectively. Please explain exactly what in your previous statement qualifies as a brilliant concept, because "young people are smarter than old people " doesn't qualify as brilliance.
"I refer to homosexuality as a choice because sex is a behavior. People can choose how they behave. You are perfectly physically capable of choosing to engage in homosexual sex, as am I and as is the entire population."
Every human has a sex drive. Your labedo controls this. deleted/edited textof another male because I won't be aroused. Otherwise I would be either bisexual or homosexual. THAT IS SEXUAL PREFERENCE. I am heterosexual because I am only aroused by females. Those who are physically capable are one of the other two. editing-How does this statement make any sense?
Furthermore one can choose to act on one's preference or not. That is a conscious decision, also referred to as a choice. One might have a preference for drinking antifreeze and choose not to indulge in that preference because doing so would be highly hazardous to one's health. This is no different.
this makes it appear that I am the one who made that objectionable statement when it was, in reality, yours. If you are allowed to continue to post to this discussion, you will kindly make more of an effort to be clear on who said what.
"You said:
"Thank you for your time, and good luck with your brain deficiency/homosexuality.
"
This was my reply to your nasty comment above.To equate homosexuality with a brain deficiency is disrespectful to the one poster who has self identified on another blog as a homosexual as well as to those who have commented on my blog in the past who may be reading this posting without commenting."
This is the second half of the previous edited posting.
It was disrespectful sarcasm directed at you. Why would I defend something and then insult it? I even put effort into making that clear. I have no problem with homosexuality and believe it is as normal as anything else in this abnormal world. Put two and two together.(it equals four by the way) Once again, where is the logic here? You have no problem with homosexuality, yet you use it as an insult? Perhaps you should answer your own question of why you would defend something and then insult it.
You request respect yet you're attempting to control other people's actions. You've made your statement very clear. The host of this even doesn't even know you, and you don't know him. You were the one to judge. You fired the first bullet, how can you possibly expect respect from whom you're attacking? That makes absolutely no sense. Yes, you may believe he's attacking your god, but how can he attack something he doesn't believe exists?
You are assuming I don't know this young man. This young man "fired the first bullet" by attacking my faith and my community in a public forum. Both facebook and the Plymouth City Park are public forums. I have responded respectfully, appropriately and in a civilized manner to something I consider to be a fairly strong provocation.
I'd continue arguing with you, but you appear to lack common sense.
This was posted as I think this person deserved the opportunity to respond, but, as they have noted, their previous post contained disrespectful sarcasm directed at me. I will have no compunction about deleting further posts from this person-who, to the best of my knowledge, is not my best friend, nor even anyone known to me.
To anonymous who said:
"science disproves god. the fact that god has no real form disproves him. nobody has seen god, nobody talks to god. "
First of all, if you had paid attention in school, you would know that science cannot prove or disprove anything. It can only make observations and predictions about how things behave in general.
Steam has no form and is completely invisible until it cools into condensed water vapor, but I haven't heard anyone attempting to say it doesn't exist. Please study harder and please stay on topic.
And Thank you DR.D for sharing your expertise and wisdom with these young people. They are inclined to be rude and arrogant, (and terribly uneducated-but you know my thoughts on the school in this community already. The local youth can hardly be blamed for acting out in this manner.) but so were we once.
And as to the Anonymous (It would be helpful if you gave yourselves taglines or sign off names) who began with: "you bible thumpers " Please refrain from posting until you have read the rules of this blog. Your post contains numerous personal attacks does not advance the discussion, and as such has been deleted.
You know you did this to yourselves. What did you expect? Take God out of schools and just about everything else this happens. Look around you people your "kids" are the systems now. Colleges are Atheist factories pumping away. Do you really think people are going to believe in God with every figure of authority plus the nightly news constantly telling them Christians are arrogant, ignorant, and my favorite violent? They want you to make a scene and you all sound stupid enough to do it. I wouldn't be surprised to see this become national news and guess who will be on the negative end as always... "The evil Christians are stopping free speech." So tell me what's going to happen? Are we going to make the news and give these ignorant Atheists a voice or are we going to ignore them and nobody will know or care what they have to say.
Anonymous,
While I appreciate your point of view, you are missing the big picture.
First, yes, the parents of these children have given them inconsistent feedback to the point of hypocrisy in many cases. God isn't the only thing that has been let go in the last 100 years. There was a time when people would march their children down to the local police station if they found out they had done something wrong. Now our legislators won't even consider introducing legislation to protect the civil rights of our young people because the legislators believe their parents would prevent them from being charged for things when they have done them. Personal responsibility seems to be unfashionable these days as well.
Why should these young people believe their parents about God when their parents are so clearly hypocrites in matters of everyday life?
Second, I am a Christian. Unapologetically. As a Christian there are certain standards I do my best to keep. I often fail, but when God tosses an easy one my way, I have no excuse. This is an easy one. Blatant disrespect of the Bible or texts held holy by other religions is a clear cry for help. Yes they want this to draw attention to them. Sometimes it is best to ignore such displays, but when there is a legitimate grievance behind the display, to ignore it is only asking for escalation. What would they do next if this fails to garner the hoped for changes? Both as a parent and a Christian I want to address the issues that have led to this temper tantrum in the hopes that this can be turned in a better direction before it degenerates into the kind of nastiness that could result from such a display.
Third, From the first time I heard of this I have done what I could to keep it in the community, specifically parents and clergy, because this is really their duty to address. The parents from the standpoint of why is my child acting out in this way and how can I repair damage? The clergy from the standpoint that God will hold them accountable for their congregations and this is a clear indicator that they have not been providing the guidance that these young people in their congregations need. I did send a note to the local paper, but they will most likely do nothing until the event happens, because up to that point, it's not really news.
Fourth, (but most important to me), I have a double duty to God in this situation: to see that His word is not treated disrespectfully, if I can prevent it and to minister to these young people in such a way that they see they can make their point to parents and clergy in a way that does no harm to themselves or their community. I would prefer that local parents and clergy take care of this, but I am unwilling to leave these young people thinking that there are no Christians in this community who are willing to stand up for their beliefs strongly enough to oppose this unruly display.
Fifth, the community will suffer a negative impact from this event whether or not it gets national attention. I am of the opinion that it will get attention(since that is what it was designed to do) either before or after the event. I would prefer that it get attention before in the hopes of preventing it than that it get attention afterwards, which would most assuredly be negative attention. How much better would it be for everyone if these young people would agree to change the event to a community wide discussion on differing beliefs and how they feel they have been slighted and how to change that instead of a "I'm angry because life isn't fair so I'm going to do something bad and you'll have to pick up the pieces afterwards?" I was planning to suggest to them that they scrap the disrespectful display, and instead, reserve the high school auditorium and ask local clergy and parents to come and hear them out. Initiate a discussion rather than a brawl. I think they are smart enough to realize that starting off with an offensive demonstration is not going to result in a non-judgmental discussion. It's the equivalent of punching someone in the face and then saying:"I just wanted to let you know that you really annoy me when you insist that my behavior is bad, now let's sit down and have a civilized discussion about ways we can work this out."
Also, anonymous please review the rules of the blog with regard to personal attacks.
Manifesto:
Free discourse is the fundamental lynchpin of democracy. Every day, citizens discuss their beliefs on issues, both political and personal. Dialogue and discourse are the sole catalysts for democratic change. Only stagnation can occur, however, when people refuse to discuss issues because of their inherent sensitivity. In the United States, religion remains societally enshrined on a sacred pillar, taboo as a topic of discussion and free from disparagement or debate. Religious ideals, despite this distance from the realm of rational discourse and their apparent immunity from criticism, still have a profound effect in shaping American politics for all citizens, not just believers.
For example, homosexuals remain unable to marry. References to God abound in public locations, even in the daily Pledge of Allegiance in public schools. A majority of Americans would still not vote for an atheist president (http://www.pollster.com/blogs/would_you_vote_for_a_fill_in_t.php), and the anti-abortion group ‘The Army of God’ continues to advocate the murder of doctors who perform abortions, despite the recent slaying of Dr. George Tiller.
What do these trends in American politics reflect? Intolerance? A lack of communication? Minor discrepancies in dogma? We are unsure of the answer but we are sure that we’re angry. We are angry that violence and oppression continues to stem from religion, and that religious ideals are a dominant force in American politics while questioning or criticizing them remains taboo. Sometimes it takes a spark to ignite conversation on an otherwise untouchable issue. We are angry and unafraid to desecrate “holy” objects. We will not be censored. We will have a bible fight, and we invite the entire community to take part – be it in the melee, as an observer, or as a counter-protestor. Afterwards, let us put aside our differences and recognize the social tension that we, the youth, are feeling. Perhaps this act of rebellion can become a forum for tolerance, but only if those who are opposed are willing to hear our discontent.
Bible Fight on! We’ll see you in the park, armed and ready, not only for the fight, but for dialogue to follow.first post.
...also, I am grossly offended that some comments have been deleted from this forum due to their alleged 'profanity' while christians defame the homosexual orientation. Homosexuality occurs naturally in nature (go on Youtube and search for animals 'humping' each other). Your views on homosexuality are grossly (and offensively) misunderstood.
Anonymous, I have seen the change in the event description which used to read:
"We are going to buy 25-100 bibles. we are going to spilt up into teams and throw them at each other. thiknk of it as a game of dodge ball but even better. the only rule established so far is if you hit once you are out. the day of we will most likey throw out any rules but this is just a guide line.
and fyi this is serious we are [edited] doing this.
religion is a joke lets treat it as one"
While your "manifesto" is less belligerent and contains fewer errors in spelling and grammar, (I do appreciate the lack of profanity-Thank you.) It is still sadly revealing your lack of world or even national knowledge in a number of areas.
To paraphrase your manifesto, you are saying:
"I think no one ever attacks religious views in the United States in an open forum." (Are we living in the same country? Religion and religious views are attacked and discussed to death in multiple forums every day in this country. Simply because you have not been paying attention does not mean there has been no discussion.)
"The Bible is telling me that the way I want to live is wrong, therefore the Bible must be wrong and everyone who believes it must therefore also be wrong."
( Your logic is faulty. I would direct you to my posts here and elsewhere on the dangers of legislation by redefinition and why marriage is not an appropriate term for two people of the same sex deciding to form a partnership, but that would be off topic.)
"I am assuming that because a small group of religiously motivated extremists condone and encourage the murder of abortionists, all people of faith do so as well." (This is also faulty logic as well as a generality. I do not condone murder except in the case of capital punishment, nor do any of the Christians I know.)
"We're angry, so we're going to demonstrate our anger by engaging in violent"( You called it a fight-not me.)"and offensive activity and then demand that all those who find it offensive sit down with us and discuss the issue nicely, but only if they agree with us.
So come on out and watch as we do this horribly offensive and disrespectful thing so you'll know we're really angry."
My intention in the paraphrase was not to ridicule you, but rather to point out not only that your manifesto says you are capable of more reason than the previous description did, but also that you are not likely to cause anyone to listen to your opinion respectfully, because you are still starting the conversation by being incredibly offensive to the very people with whom you wish to have a dialogue.
Clearly you have been following the posts. I would urge you to take the suggestion made earlier to reserve the high school auditorium and ask your community to engage in a serious dialogue with you on the issues that you find so upsetting.
Meet me halfway. No throwing Bibles or other religion's scriptures and have a reasonable discussion with the community. You reserve the high school and I will contact local clergy and give them your contact info so you can arrange this.
As for this anonymous comment:"I am grossly offended that some comments have been deleted from this forum due to their alleged 'profanity' while Christians defame the homosexual orientation"
The comments were not removed for profanity.
This is my blog. I decide what is allowed to remain and what is not. The comments that were removed were removed because they did not meet my standards of respectful dialogue and contained personal attacks against me as well as being disrespectful of other readers/posters. The commenters were warned and continued with the same attitude. Actions have consequences.
Animal displays of dominance are not equivalent to homosexual behavior in humans. (Although displays of dominance could certainly be argued for some individuals. That does not exactly refute my point of view though does it?)
My "views" on homosexuality, misunderstood or not, have been shaped by my Biblical world view and confirmed by current scientific research,(Although it has become more difficult to find any that hasn't been corrupted by those with political agendas of late.) personal observation and common sense. They are not intended to cause offense, just to view the world and everything in it as truthfully as I can manage.
My view of the choice to live as a homosexual, is that this choice is unhealthy: physically, emotionally and spiritually. I don't approve of it for those reasons.
I have not been disrespectful to anyone who has shared their lifestyle choice with me. I have simply asked them to change it for their own sake and because I love them and want them to have a longer, healthier life than such a choice is likely to give them. I didn't approve of my mother's smoking either, but it didn't mean I don't love HER.
Do I walk around saying or thinking "God hates Fags" as the new photo on your event shows someone doing? No. Because that's not true. God loves and died for those who choose a homosexual lifestyle just as much as He loves and died for every other human being on this Earth.
God loves you enough to trust you with the choice of whether or not to believe His word and live in obedience to it.
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."~Rom 3:10-11
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"~Romans 3:23
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. "~Rom 5:8
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."~Rom 6:23
It's your choice. I am going to ask that you refrain from this particular topic going forward because it is off topic.
Also, creativity in peaceful, legal, demonstrations go a long way. This game gets their point across. Not everything has to be settled in a debate at the PHS auditorium. These kids aren't started an argument, they just feel the need to get their thoughts, ideas, beliefs (and possibly frustrations) out there.
Oh, and Dr. D, just how would this be construed as a misuse of public facilities? It is a peaceful protest, with no obstruction. These kids have a right to use public areas for free speech.
Anonymous,
First, I am not your mother. Kindly refrain from referring to me as your mother.
Second: Science is a method for observing the world and formulating theories about how things will behave under certain conditions. It is not intended to prove anything and therefore cannot.
In order to be regarded as a scientific fact, something must be observable, measurable and repeatable. Evolution, in the sense you mean it, passes none of these criteria. There are adaptations within a species but there are zero observed instances of one species going through any transitional forms into another species. Not one. There are zero instances of a mutation causing a beneficial change to an individual in a species that gives that individual an adaptational advantage. Not one. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, ALL observed mutations in any species have been detrimental in whatever species they have occurred.
But, once again this is off topic.
You said I implied that Confucianism is a religion. Simply including the Confucian analects in the list of texts that might also offend people to see it thrown around is not implying that it is a religion.
You said"How dare you even attempt to tell someone to change their lifestyle and that others out there are better." I see, so you're saying it's okay for you to tell me that I need to change my views, but the reverse is not? And for goodness sake, How horrible of me to want the best for you, what was I thinkning?
But again off topic.
The topic here is that having a Bible fight in City park is disrespectful to your community and offensive to a large part of your community as well.
I found your post offensively condescending, so I have removed it. If you come back with a better attitude I may reconsider.
Mr. Anoymous, your vaunted education seems to be lacking a bit. You say, "For instance: evolution is proven, by science." No, most definitely evolution is not proven. That is why it is referred to as the Theory of Evolution, not the Fact of Evolution. You missed that one completely -- zero points.
You also said, "These kids aren't started an argument,..." so I don't see any reason at all why you should object if Mom criticizes your grammar. Somebody certainly needs to do so! And wasn't it true that they said they were starting a fight? I think the general consensus would be that a fight is not the appropriate use of a public park.
You said to Mom, "How dare you even attempt to tell someone to change their lifestyle and that others out there are better." Actually, it is really pretty easy when you have as much wisdom as Mom has, and the knowledge of God's Law. You just do what God has said to do, and let the chips fall where they may. She knows, and I do as well, the homosexuality is a choice opposed to the will of God for mankind. God does not see any of His creatures make such bad choices, and to those who know better, He says "Look after the foolish ones." So that's how it works in answer to your question; its really pretty simple.
Oh, and since you have difficulty imagining any finer school than Plymouth High School, let me assure you that they do exist. Trust me on that, even if it stretches your imagination.
"These kids aren't started an argument, they just feel the need to get their thoughts, ideas, beliefs (and possibly frustrations) out there.
" ( I am assuming that you meant to say that these kids didn't start an argument.)
I beg your pardon? Yes, they did. How many times do I have to say this? Throwing the Bible at each other in a public forum is offensive and disrespectful.
Someone who wants to " get their thoughts, ideas, beliefs (and possibly frustrations) out there.
" should choose a different form of expression if they don't want opposition. Write a letter to the editor.
The intent of this event was clearly to be offensive and incite opposition.
I have simply been asking that they refrain, both for their own sakes and the sake of the community and that they re-direct their efforts in a more constructive direction.
I have not called anyone nasty names during this, would that I could say the same of all of you.
I have said that I find this appalling, juvenile and offensive. I do find it offensive, juvenile and appalling. It is offensive because it is treating the holy scriptures of my faith disrespectfully. It is juvenile because throwing things around and breaking things is the way a child asks for attention when they are frustrated.
And it is appalling because of what it says about this community. That the youth would feel such a display is warranted and acceptable, that they think it would remain unnoticed and that they would openly disregard the beliefs of their community in such a disrespectful and offensive way.
I am going to disable comments until Monday as I am going to be away from the computer and I am loathe to allow this conversation to continue on my blog without supervision.
The comments are back on, but with moderation as I seem to have overestimated the folks who are most likely to comment on this post in terms of manners and graciousness. Comments that are disrespectful, condescending, rude, laced with profanity(although that has not been much of a problem, for which I thank you) or off topic will not be posted.
Hey mom you don't live in Plymouth do you? Also I was wondering if you had ties to any of the local churches? I may have a plan that will solve this little bible fight problem but I would need your help. Well that and the help of almost every other person in the city but still. There's not much time and I would need every church in the city to work together. It's not a protest and it's not negative.
Anonymous, I do have some ties to certain members of the clergy in Plymouth and I can find contact information for may others if you wish.
You may contact me through this blog. As the comments are moderated, if you wish to submit your proposal as a comment not to be posted, just say so in the post and I will honor your wishes. Otherwise there is an e-mail address on my profile through which I can be contacted.
I appreciate your interest in helping and my apologies for taking so long to get this posted. I was visiting family and away from computer access.
I am hoping that the fact that I can no longer find the event listing on Facebook means that the event is cancelled.
If I find out differently, I'll put up a new post.
Thanks to all who participated in the discussion as well as those who offered constructive suggestions.
Post a Comment